the next webOS device

[cardfan]

I know there's some who want a Pixi Pro or a Treo Pro replacement as a result of a recent Precentral blog. Some simply want a better Pre. While others want a landscape slider.

But IMO, that can come later. These first few devices need to matter. Also mentioned in same blog, Palm needs a thin slab device. 3.7 or bigger high res glass screen, 64gb, solid casing, connector on bottom, no replaceable battery so a sealed cover but integrate the touchstone tech in back. No buttons at all on the face.

Predictably, some will say, no, that's an iphone. But it's the form factor that many want. It's also something many on sprint or even verizon are still waiting for. Many would avoid the Droid in favor of something that "looks" better but had a similar screen.

The Hero or Eris is on the right track but Palm has plenty of room to do it much better and more high end. If Palm wants to be firmly in the top 3 in terms of mind share, then they need at least one form factor to match em.

This isn't a thread intended for those wanting another form factor and defending their choice but for those who do want something like this...to add how Palm could put their own spin on it.

[Shado.F]

I don't think this is in the right forum.

[rc46]

Rubinstein is on record saying how much he despises the thin slab form factor and argued with Jobs for months saying the iphone needed a keyboard. I completely agree with him. It feels terrible in your pocket, terrible in your hand and is very uncomfortable to hold next to your face. Palm would be fools to make a iphone clone. They need to keep thinking out of the box and not copying sub-par devices. BTW, not having a removable battery would be complete suicide. Instead of 64mb they should stay with 8 and add micro SD expansion. This would be very popular.

If you go to the sprint store today you will see that more the half the phones there are already the iphone form factor so if "many" are still waiting, I'm not sure why?

[cardfan]

Originally Posted by rc46

Rubinstein is on record saying how much he despises the thin slab form factor and argued with Jobs for months saying the iphone needed a keyboard. I completely agree with him. It feels terrible in your pocket, terrible in your hand and is very uncomfortable to hold next to your face. Palm would be fools to make a iphone clone. They need to keep thinking out of the box and not copying sub-par devices. BTW, not having a removable battery would be complete suicide. Instead of 64mb they should stay with 8 and add micro SD expansion. This would be very popular.

If you go to the sprint store today you will see that more the half the phones there are already the iphone form factor so if "many" are still waiting, I'm not sure why?

Name one smartphone with this form factor at Sprint that has a capacitive touch screen.. The Hero is the only one but its half baked.

Ruby doesn't seem too bright then... What his priority should be is designing webOS devices that people want and will have a good profit margin.

[cardfan]

Originally Posted by Shado.F

I don't think this is in the right forum.

Nice catch there. Yep, it was moved to the cemetery. Hope you can rest easier now.

[xtn]

You have any survey data suggesting the iPhone form is exactly what most people prefer? No fair answering that iPhone is the most purchased, because there are many other reasons for that besides the form.

I don't like it myself. Along with the expensive plans, form factor tops the list of why I never bought an iPhone in the first place.

Then along came the Pre and it's perfect for me. I like the slightly smaller screen. It's the same resolution after all; the pixels are just slightly closer together. Plus half the screen isn't gobbled up by an on-screen keyboard.

Sure, I'll take more memory, better materials, etc., but are you serious about wanting a non-removable battery? That's actually a design feature you would prefer?

Anyway Ilm not arguing that you and some others might prefer an iPhone form. Ilm arguing that I and some other don't, and wondering why you think most people do.

xtn

[Brownbear50]

I think they need three phones no more. The slider(Pre), the candybar(pixi) and a large high res slab no more and no less. you bring all these phones up to par meaning all have the same features like wifi an so on. On top of that offer two versions a 16 gig and 32 gig. This just ensures you don't have a cluster **** of devices out there like android and in my opinion makes for better user experience and allows palm to keep better quality control

[s219]

Originally Posted by rc46

Rubinstein is on record saying how much he despises the thin slab form factor and argued with Jobs for months saying the iphone needed a keyboard. I completely agree with him. It feels terrible in your pocket, terrible in your hand and is very uncomfortable to hold next to your face. Palm would be fools to make a iphone clone. They need to keep thinking out of the box and not copying sub-par devices. BTW, not having a removable battery would be complete suicide. Instead of 64mb they should stay with 8 and add micro SD expansion. This would be very popular.

If you go to the sprint store today you will see that more the half the phones there are already the iphone form factor so if "many" are still waiting, I'm not sure why?

Rubinstein left Apple long before the iPhone. I don't think he had anything to do with it at all. There are articles from years earlier where he is quoted as being completely against an "iPod phone", but that's about it. Obviously, if he was against the idea of what became the iPhone, he has been proven wrong.

I do have to question your thoughts on removable battery, keyboard, and memory. If Apple has shown anything, it's that there are major benefits to a non-removable battery, the pluses of a software keyboard at least offset many of the minuses, and that having a lot of onboard memory is the way to go (especially when people start putting gigabytes of apps on their devices). You definitely have valid opinions, but the tens of millions of iPhone customers sort of proves Apple's point. Some people do want hard keyboard and removable battery/memory options, but masses of customers have embraced the complete opposite approach.

One thing webOS (until it's fixed) and Android (may never be fixed anytime soon) are going to get hammered on is the small partition available for app storage. That was a suicidal decision. Some of the best iPhone games are already larger, by themselves, than the entire 256MB app space on Android!

[shotyme]

Originally Posted by s219

Rubinstein left Apple long before the iPhone. I don't think he had anything to do with it at all. There are articles from years earlier where he is quoted as being completely against an "iPod phone", but that's about it. Obviously, if he was against the idea of what became the iPhone, he has been proven wrong.

I do have to question your thoughts on removable battery, keyboard, and memory. If Apple has shown anything, it's that there are major benefits to a non-removable battery, the pluses of a software keyboard at least offset many of the minuses, and that having a lot of onboard memory is the way to go (especially when people start putting gigabytes of apps on their devices). You definitely have valid opinions, but the tens of millions of iPhone customers sort of proves Apple's point. Some people do want hard keyboard and removable battery/memory options, but masses of customers have embraced the complete opposite approach.

One thing webOS (until it's fixed) and Android (may never be fixed anytime soon) are going to get hammered on is the small partition available for app storage. That was a suicidal decision. Some of the best iPhone games are already larger, by themselves, than the entire 256MB app space on Android!

Not necessarily correct. Apple appeals to a certain niche. Why does blackberry sell so many phones? That form factor is not for everyone. The thing that kicked off Iphone popularity is the Ipod. Basically, the Iphone is an Ipod with phone capabilities. Not having a removable battery is stupid IMO, but that is my opinion. Some people don't care. There are still hundreds of millions of people who do not like/want an Iphone. That is the market they are attacking. Even some Iphone owners don't like the Iphone, but that is the only phone good on ATT. In other countries like Japan and China, the Iphone has not done well.

Iphone is good if that is what appeals to you, but it is not definitively the best.

[cardfan]

Originally Posted by xtn

You have any survey data suggesting the iPhone form is exactly what most people prefer? No fair answering that iPhone is the most purchased, because there are many other reasons for that besides the form.

I don't like it myself. Along with the expensive plans, form factor tops the list of why I never bought an iPhone in the first place.

Then along came the Pre and it's perfect for me. I like the slightly smaller screen. It's the same resolution after all; the pixels are just slightly closer together. Plus half the screen isn't gobbled up by an on-screen keyboard.

Sure, I'll take more memory, better materials, etc., but are you serious about wanting a non-removable battery? That's actually a design feature you would prefer?

Anyway Ilm not arguing that you and some others might prefer an iPhone form. Ilm arguing that I and some other don't, and wondering why you think most people do.

xtn

I don't need survey data. I just need common sense. Apple is a huge success. RIM took a stab at it with its Storm but an aging OS holds them back. Droid's appeal is its screen..for many the kb isn't relevant. People are going nuts over the HD2 despite WM.

As for the battery, the majority don't ever carry another one or switch it out. Sealing the cover on makes the device more solid and allows better looking designs which sells phones. The last thing i want to fool with is removing the cover to the Pre..its a pain...or carry spares. If it was so convenient noone would be griping about battery life.

If Palm's weakness is the OS and needing time to optimize it, then its easy to make up for it with a solid high end form factor. HD2 is proof that people would be more tolerant of OS shortcomings.

[strudel]

Originally Posted by s219

If Apple has shown anything, it's that there are major benefits to a non-removable battery

What exactly are those benefits with a phone? A slightly slimmer phone? Actually isn't the Droid basically the same thickness as the iPhone with a physical keyboard and removable battery?

With how power hungry these phones are a removable battery is a huge benefit since you don't need to be tied to a power source, either spare batteries or an extended battery will do for virtually all situations where a power source isn't available. Having to send the phone in to get the battery replaced isn't a huge deal since I don't keep phones long enough for the battery to not hold a charge but being tied to a charger can really suck, especially if it happens at the wrong time. If I drain the battery on the Pre (or any other phone that has a removable battery for that matter), I am down for a few minutes while I swap batteries. If the battery is not removable, you better hope you have a charging cable and power source handy.

Sorry for the rant but I see zero benefit to a non-removable battery on a phone. If I am missing some benefit to the design choice please let me know because I am not seeing it...

[max.swell]

Originally Posted by s219

Rubinstein left Apple long before the iPhone. I don't think he had anything to do with it at all. There are articles from years earlier where he is quoted as being completely against an "iPod phone", but that's about it. Obviously, if he was against the idea of what became the iPhone, he has been proven wrong.

I do have to question your thoughts on removable battery, keyboard, and memory. If Apple has shown anything, it's that there are major benefits to a non-removable battery, the pluses of a software keyboard at least offset many of the minuses, and that having a lot of onboard memory is the way to go (especially when people start putting gigabytes of apps on their devices). You definitely have valid opinions, but the tens of millions of iPhone customers sort of proves Apple's point. Some people do want hard keyboard and removable battery/memory options, but masses of customers have embraced the complete opposite approach.

One thing webOS (until it's fixed) and Android (may never be fixed anytime soon) are going to get hammered on is the small partition available for app storage. That was a suicidal decision. Some of the best iPhone games are already larger, by themselves, than the entire 256MB app space on Android!

i think that the popularity of the Iphone lies in its operating system (and marketing) and not as much in its form factor. the iphone would have been equally as popular if it had a hard keyboard, and removable battery.
keep in mind that the BB is still the best selling smart phone. I also believe that people put up with the disadvantages of the Iphone (as a phone) cause it does other things well (music player, game machine,web surfing, fart generator). Not to mention Apples ability to make people believe that they need their products!
The Brits know what's up though, and are not afraid to admit it:
brit-Blog-names-iPhone-worlds-worst.html: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

[cardfan]

Originally Posted by max.swell

i think that the popularity of the Iphone lies in its operating system (and marketing) and not as much in its form factor. the iphone would have been equally as popular if it had a hard keyboard, and removable battery.
keep in mind that the BB is still the best selling smart phone. I also believe that people put up with the disadvantages of the Iphone (as a phone) cause it does other things well (music player, game machine,web surfing, fart generator). Not to mention Apples ability to make people believe that they need their products!
The Brits know what's up though, and are not afraid to admit it:
brit-Blog-names-iPhone-worlds-worst.html: Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance

And yet, RIM designed the storm. HTC offers Hero and HD2. It's ok for them. But not Palm? WebOS was made for no buttons.

[jhoff80]

Originally Posted by cardfan

And yet, RIM designed the storm.

Really bad example here, the Storm is known as a POS by almost all its users.

[crogs571]

Don't agree there. The Hero and Moment are quite nice. The Moto Droid is on the right track. With a better keyboard and maybe some softer lines, it'd be the phone to beat. I own both the Hero and Moment. While I can type very well on both, I prefer having a keyboard because I can actually see the entire screen while I type. In giving my people at work a choice between the two, most preferred the Moment with a hard keyboard.

I also think a non screen form of navigation is essential on the front. A good track ball or optical pad does wonders to augment the touch interface and can really make cutting and pasting a breeze.
How about the Pre, little larger footprint with increased screen size, little thinner. screw the whole inset keyboard and curved slider. Put the focus back on a quality keyboard which is something they've obviously forgotten how to do. 1-1.2gb snapdragon, 8 or 16gb on board with a card slot or even just an 8 or 16gb card included and let the user go to 32gb when it comes out.

And I am completely fine with a few hard buttons at the bottom, flanking the trackball/optical pad. One thing I've learned is I hate touching the screen for everything. Give me a little more old school one handedness on top of the slickness of the touchscreen.

The 2nd generation Pre should have no problem being a slider and coming in no thicker or larger than the HTC Eris.

The other problem would be maintaining the vertical slider but adding functionality buttons at the bottom. Would make the phone really long when opened. The landscape slider is definitely growing on me. Get rid of the chunk factor, and I think you'd have a winner for round 2.

Originally Posted by cardfan

Name one smartphone with this form factor at Sprint that has a capacitive touch screen.. The Hero is the only one but its half baked.

Ruby doesn't seem too bright then... What his priority should be is designing webOS devices that people want and will have a good profit margin.

[cardfan]

Remember, i'm not saying Palm should junk everything else and go with this. Just offer this. Or even a landscape slider. Whatever gets that big screen going.

[ttcoupe]

I am hoping that the next Palm device is a unique design that stands out from the competition.

Maybe a high-end device that has two displays. That could be a slider, a clamshell, or there could be displays on both large sides of the device without losing any of the pocketability.

[toyotast165]

if palm actually listened to apple and sealed the back I would be ****ed, its suicide as previously stated. I personally am always on the go and use 3 to 4 batteries a day, I don't have time to let it sit and charge. I bought the device and the extra chargers and batteries and chargers for a reason, to use the phone! Having a removable battery is a selling point for me.

[meyerweb]

Palm's major differentiating factor is touch screen + keyboard. Why would they give that up? And why in God's name would they make a device with a non-replaceable battery? That's the one thing nearly everyone despises about the iPhone.

But the real issue has nothing to do with form factor. Palm needs to get the software fixed, fast. Still too many bugs, too few features, too limited cusomizability, and way, way too few apps. Making a clone of the iPhone with all the problems the Pre has would just point out all the more how weak WebOS is, today.

[grndslm]

Originally Posted by meyerweb

Palm's major differentiating factor is touch screen + keyboard. Why would they give that up? And why in God's name would they make a device with a non-replaceable battery? That's the one thing nearly everyone despises about the iPhone.

But the real issue has nothing to do with form factor. Palm needs to get the software fixed, fast. Still too many bugs, too few features, too limited cusomizability, and way, way too few apps. Making a clone of the iPhone with all the problems the Pre has would just point out all the more how weak WebOS is, today.

Completely agreed with the last point. They'll keep tweaking and getting things ironed out. Rubenstein already said that they're a software company. That's what they do now is webOS. Once they truly get the foundation laid for their software (i.e. - GPU hooks for the OS' animations)... then I can see large slabs being a very desirable device, maybe even commodity by the time Palm gets around to it.

I'd love to have a Pixi2 (with different name, of course) for a phone, but I'd also love a huge (5+") slab, possibly even up to 7" or 8". But I'm thinking thin with a huge battery that fills all the space, like Li-Polymer. I want a webSlab. It'd be iPhone-esque design with webOS.

I always wanted webOS on something with a tablet-computer hinge so that I could protect the screen and landscape keyboard. But the keyboard I might be able to give up for a device like this.

No, scratch that... I want a Pepper Pad 2 with webOS. I always wanted that thing, but it was just a bit underpowered. Today, OTOH, this would be incredibly easy to reproduce and sell millions with an awesome interface, like webOS.

Of course, webOS does need a bit extra work, doesn't it? But I'm going to invest stock in Palm knowing what I know now. They're a software company.